When the backlash means you're doing something right. An interview with Emma Ashford

Kelley and Dan talk this week with Emma Ashford, an expert at the Atlantic Council's New American Engagement Initiative. Her experience spans the Middle East, Russia, and Europe, and she spends her time swatting down attacks from the Blob as she seeks to change minds about old liberal internationalist order and American primacy. In our first segment, we pay tribute to the loss of two greats in the defense reform community: Mark Perry and Pierre Sprey.

More from Emma Ashford:

Reality Check #4: Focus on interests, not on human rights with Russia -- The Atlantic Council, with Mat Burrows.

Remembering Mark Perry

Remembering Pierre Sprey